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Episode 41 · 1 year ago

SPIDER-MAN 2 (2004) Discussion with Adam Volerich (Eye Of The Duck Pod)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Parth and Trent, against all odds, continue their Podcasting efforts. Also, they have on their professor/podcaster/friend Adam Volerich to discuss Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2. Frankly, it's a hoot and a half. Listen to Adam's movie podcast Eye Of The Duck, and his True Crime-ish Pod Kinda Murdery. 

Edited by Parth Marathe

Pizza time. So, part, what have you been eating? Wow, thanks for assing friend. I had birthday cake, ice cream in an ice cream cone, as it were, because I were you about to ask me, Trent? No, I was just going to say Hashtag Fu Fuck Cup Gang, because anyone who gets the ice cream in a cup has lost their inner child. Is this a thing? Is this like a legitimate like war? Is there? Is there such thing as a cup gang, or are you just being facetious? I'd say there's two types of people in this world, and the only known benefit is that you get it in a cup, so and then you can get more toppings. But I just think it isn't worth the exchange for it, because, you know, when there's there's no ways, and eating an ice cream cone is one of the few experiences where the food actually gets better. But part, thanks for asking. I just had a smoothie made myself. We have a guest, Adam ball rich, from either duck podcast. Welcome. WHOA would you have? Hello, thank you for for having me on. What did I have? I had, well, actually, our fridge died, so we have no food in the house, so I we treated ourselves to some delivery and I got a very delicious salad with a large piece of grilled salmon on it. What happened to your fad? It died. It's just it's dead. It is it has ceased to be. Are you in the process of getting into for yeah, we'll have a new one by next week, but until then, slim pickings over here the lad yeah, for Seo. Much did you do? I mean living in New York, and I know you made every effort to not leave your perfect for obvious reason. Did did you end up doing all of your own cooking? Primarily? No, I did for a little bit, but I I you know, I know a lot of people derive joy from that and unfortunately I am not one of them. So we we do some. You know, it's this like meal kit thing where they bring you a bunch of, you know, premade meals and you heat those up. So it's a very lazy way of living, but I did. It works for me. Do you attest, for for these programs? I mean one of these meal kit sponsors every podcast? No, demand, yeah, or me on these. That's one of the yeah, that cast from addresses. That's the other one. Yeah, I know, I use I use Cook Unity and it's very good. So if only we could offer them them a Promo Code. On that note, should we cut to the intro? Indeed, yes, we have a podcast to do. Welcome back to craft services, where we talk about what do we say, Trent? The movie is this is our part. We have a podcast. Each week we talked about a film and have a crew member of that film that worked on that movie. Last week we had Joseph Sisio. You was a second unit camera operator that worked on the movie and it's sequel, spider man three. So check that out, because I thought he was cool. Did you like him, Trent? I like the only listen to it if you want to. If you don't, you just keep listening to this episode because it'll hopefully be good too. Will just be very sad, though. But speaking of guests, we have with us a former college professor. Think technically I'm just an instructor, but don't, don't be modest, Adam and so and tour a friend, Adam Vulich, thank you for coming on. Thank you so much for having me on. It is a it's a pleasure to be here. Long time listener, first time cooler. Speak About your show until tell people home where they can find you and what your shows about and all that. Yeah, so I work on a show called eye of the duck, which is a podcast about also the movies, but specifically the scenes that make them special.

And so each week we discuss a film and we search for its eye of the duck scene. This is a concept we've stolen from David Lynch, where he says that when you study a duck, the only way to really truly understand it is to look at its eye. And so each week we try and figure out what is the the eye of each film, and I cohost that with my good friend and also a fellow rutgers graduate, Domnio, who's a writer and video editor at Esquia. It's an excellent podcast and, as we said in our Oscar Extravaganza, it's better than ours. So if you're listening to us, you'll like us. Do you like us? You'll love Adams podcast. Wow, that's very kind of you to say and it's not a compliment I can accept, but thank you. So we've come here for in a very important reason. We blew through spider man week no problem and we've graduated to spider man two week. Congratulations, and here we find ourselves part would you like to open with the Synopsis Of the film? Sure, so, back to a smaller synopsis. Peter Parker's beset with troubles and his failing personal life as he battles a brilliant scientist named Dr Otto Octavius. Let's say it's it's pretty good. It's pretty simple, short and sweet, to the point. Yeah, one sentence. You know, a budget two hundred million dollars, box office more or less eight hundred million dollars, and the budget of the first, for all those curious parties, was a hundred and forty million. So quick math. Sixty extra million dollars part production history. Sure, so on May eight, two thousand and two. Once spider man had a record breaking hundred and fifteen million dollar opening weekend, Sony pictures announced a sequel to come out in two thousand and four writers, Alfred Go, Miles Miller, Michael Shavon and David Kepp, who is the credited screenwriter of the first movie, all wrote separate dress of the film. Then Rami sifted through a bunch of the drafts by all of these writers with Screenwriter Alvin Sargent, who did uncredited rewrites on the first movie and picked and chose, basically, what the best parts were. He decided that this film had to explore Peter's conflict with his personal wants against his responsibility. DOC OC was chosen as the villain because they thought he was visually interesting as well as being a physical match for spider man, as well as a sympathetic figure for Peter. In doing so, he changed much of the characters backstory and added the idea of autoactavioust spoilers, being a hero. It takes partial influence from doc ox debut in the nineteen sixty three, in nineteen sixty six story line, if this be my destiny, but it is mostly inspired by the one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven storyline, spider man no more, which is the amazing spider man issue number fifty, as we said, because of all of these aforementioned drafts, there were multiple versions of this movie that could have existed, different universes, different spider verses per se. Indeed. Yep. So Toby McGuire had suffered a back injury on sea biscuit, which was just before this movie, and so because of that it was in doubt whether he'd be able to return for some time. It was potentially going to be Jake Jillen Hall who was going to take over the roll, but McGuire decided to take the part after all with the which is such a crazy prospect to me, because they subbed in a different actor for, you know, Rachel Dawes and the dark night, and I find that so distracting and the thought that they would do it for the main character and act like nothing happened. I'm glad it they didn't go down that road, as much as I like Jake Jill and he ended up being in a spider man movie. anyways. It would be a very, very different film with Jake Jillen Hall, who I think is a fantastic actor. But there's something so special about what the specificity of what toby brings to this role, I think, is is what makes this this franchise...

...and I think especially at that point he was a little he's a little too pretty. Yeah, that's past of it. Toby is like wonderfully dopee looking. Yeah, but Michael Shavon's draft had doc cock being a younger man who was in love with Mary Jane. His mechanical limbs would use endorphins to counteract the pain of being attached to his body. In the draft, he injures two muggers on the date orrifying Mary Jane, and this resulted in a battle with spider man in which his tentacles are fused together and the fusion kills him. Also, in this draft, octavious is revealed to be the creator of the radioactive spider from the first movie and he gives Peter an antidote to remove his powers, obviously something they ended up conceptually lifting. Or the final film in the David kept script, which was titled The Amazing Spider Man. It weirdly enough has a lot of similar plot elements to the eventual amazing spider man movie that came out in two thousand and twelve, as it has Peter Dating Gwen Stacy, it has the death of Gwen Stacy and it talks about his relationship with his parents who, in his draft would have been killed by DOC OC and it would have had a much darker tone. Did you know if kept any ended up having anything to do with that? That iteration of the film? I'm pretty sure James Vanderbilt wrote that, although I mean they're so similar that I feel like at the very least conceptual ideas had to have been taken. Yeah, I'm happy they abandoned all of the DOC ock is trying to steal away Mary Jane Romantically stuff. MMMM. But what I do think is conceptually interesting is the stuff about Peter having the option to remove his powers, because that's a big part of what this movie is about and I just think that would have been an interesting angle. But clearly but a very literal way of expressing that. Yeah, yeah, but I what I like so much about this, this movie is it's the spider man movie where at different times spider man chooses not to be spider man and he physically can't even be spider man, if you wanted to write. Yeah, so we've got some fun facts. Willem Dafoe, you know the green album from the original, wasn't planning to make an appearance in this movie until, as Legend has it, he was walking to his apartment in New York and saw the film crew crewing and filming and he stepped in and things went from there. There's a shot where Peter flips over and oncoming car and the stunt double stood it also, but famously, toby McGuire's flip is featured instead. Stanley was originally the Guy who stole the pizza on the balcony, but there was something wrong us and audio. Stanley was the guy that said Hey, you stole that guy's pizza. That's like a perfect stanley line to yeah, but there was something wrong with audios and then they gave him a different cameo later where he just saves some guy, which I like more because my problem with the new, I mean, rest in peace, the New Stanley Cameos is that he's like the DJ and that he does like you know, he plays much more of a major role and I think the fun of it is is like the hitchcock of it all, of like the briefness. Yeah, the the blink, the blink, and you miss him. This is, as of two thousand and twenty, the first and only live action spider man film to win an Oscar, you know, visual effect outside of spider verse. Yeah, and Danny Elfman, who did the score for the first two, infamously did not do the the score for spider man three after a falling out with Sam Remy. But don't worry, they cleared it up and they made as the great, powerful together. So it's all good in the end. Everyone's favorite Sam Rami movie. Do you know? Do you know what happened between them, or is it just sort of gossip? I do know. I've a quote here. I'll read the quote in the part you give the so Danie often said to see such a profound negative change in a human being was almost enough to make me feel like I didn't want to make films anymore. Why now, which scares me, because Sam Remi, I only have the director's commentary...

...for reference, but seems like a pretty pretty cheery guy. Wow, very interesting. Yes, so. So what happened basically is famously directors use tent music while they yeah, but and composers generally hate that because they get attached the tent music and whatnot. So what happened was Sam Remy had basically been asking Danny Elfman to start scoring things a lot more like the tent music, especially in the scene where doc ox says show me the Blue Light, rosy. There's a musical motif in that sequence that is sort of ripped from hell razor or, he'll razor three or something like that, which is a score done by Christopher Young. And so Danny Elfman kept sort of doing it and then he was like, screw you, I'm the composer. Spiderman's to score is sort of an amalgamation of a bunch of a bunch of composers coming into help fix it. I think John Appman worked on it, I think John Powell worked on it and then eventually they ended up actually bringing Christopher Young, whose music they were sampling in the first place, and just had him read sort of remix everything, and then he ended up doing the score for Spreaderman three and drag me to hell. We wow next movie. That's so funny too, because the school for drag me to hell sounds like Danny Elfman. Yeah, I mean he's got a very specific sound he likes, I guess, but I mean I guess everything ended up working out. Yeah, it's interesting that this is, you know, more of a diluted version or as you described it's it's you know, it's a compilation of a bunch of different sources, because I think this is considered the preferred Danny Elfman spider man soundtrack of the to. This is my favorite of the trilogy. It is, it's mine as well. There's some there's some great tunes here if you want to listen to those tracks, because I'm a nerd. When I was like fifteen I found out about about this drama and there's there's a there's a website called download soundtracks and if you look you can find the spider man to complete album where you can find a bunch of unused music. So the train sequence was completely rescored. The rangeops keep falling on my head. Sequence originally had score over it. Why don't bunch of scenes with like completely different tracks? So go out there. I'm not saying it's illegal, but I won't say it's legal either. So Toby McGuire had some back problems, which you refer to about sea biscuit and there's a small nod to this and they show a bunch of newspapers and I'm not a member of the cinemason's team, so I had to read this somewhere else. But they pause it and they read the news blurb and it some one clearly from the prop department put in. Can Chronic back pain lead to brain drinkage, which he hearing? You know the complaints of people of Toby McGuire, you know who've come in contact with them makes some sense speaking. You Have Tomyquires Asian as for twenty five million dollars or ten percent of the gross of the film, whichever was more, and this was politely denied. And final detail. The Guy who's beat up in the alley when Peter is just like decides to walk away. He's carrying he's like the trash guy who's he has a bag and it's supposed to be the discarded spider man suit. But it says that the plot does not make this clear. Yeah, that that isn't clear. Yeah, I didn't so either. Luckily, I watched the spider man two point one version, which parts of was his least favorite of the editor's cuts. But here I have a few of what I considered the noteworthy deleted scenes, the scene in the elevator with like the awkward standoff where Peter can't use his powers anymore. In this version it's like much more of a comedic scene and they're much, you know, more jokes. Well, it's already quite funny. Well, it's already quite funny, but I think the comedy is that it's a one shot and that there's and that it's just them standing like quietly and shuffling around in the...

...body language. HMM. And then in this one it's the advertising guy doing like an elevator pitch, I mean literally. Then there's the j Jonah Jameson dressing up a spider man, which is pretty pretty. Why I love that. It's amazing, it's awesome and it really breaks my heart that it didn't make an appearance, but totally I kind of understand. Yeah, and and the last thing, the longest scene that was cut was Mary Jane and kind of an unnamed female friend just talking in a shoe store about love and about marriage and stuff. That was cut too. Now we have some onestar reviews. Wait, hold up, you didn't. You didn't mention my my favorite thing from the two point one cup, which is the extended part of the raindrops fooling on my head montage, where there's like two, there's like mirrored pizza Paka like against himself, and it's just the goofiest looking effect I've ever seen, but it's really delightful. Is that? Is that not in the theatrical one? No, I don't think so, because I watched the theatrical for this one. It's not. It just him walking in a long shot. Yeah, my God, my memory is a lie. The reflective image with his magnified head. It's really too race yeah, it's incredible, like with Peter like standing up. He does the Paul Thomas Anderson thing where he liked films them like three times and then like cuts them together, and I just think that's yeah, it's trick to yes, probably want to read our first one star review. Sure. So. This is from Haze Ze Waller. Help, three exclamation points. I just got the Amazon Fire Elypsies. Help, three exclamation points. I just got the Amazon fire stick in my children keep ordering movies. The password set up and it still charges me. I even deleted all my purchase options, yet I am still charged. In all caps. Digital orders. Don't you return or dispute a huge flaw. Wow, Adam, do you want to do? Want to feel this next one? Sure? This one is from Soundra. One out of five stars. From may twenty five, two thousand and nineteen. I did not or to spider man too. I did not or to spider man too. She didn't think she ordered spider man to. I you know, it's it's hard to say based on the the text. He yeah, context clue this third one is we've really leaned into. I mean it's spider man too, so there are only so many negative reviews happening. So you need to go into the experience of it all, and that's where things can really go wrong. This third one is called the rip off and it says what a ripoff. Only the specials features DVD was in the case, which would upset anyone. Yeah, consider that. I'd be. I'd be furious about that part. You want to finish this off. Sure, this is from ctch reviews. This movie has dazzling effects and action, but I'm sorry, I can't help but be annoyed by how stupid Peter has become and how even more they've just put for asterisks, I'm assuming it's dumb Mary Jane has become, and how idiotic Harry is thinking that just because Peter takes pictures of spider man automatically means Peter knows who spider man is. It also doesn't help that spider man's powers disappear for no realistic biological reason. I can't believe people just gloss over these flaws. Wow, the biggest biological flaw here isn't that he has spider powers, in the first place. It's the sudden lapse of the spider powers. Haven't you have a hoard of the yips? Come on, he I mean that the doctor seen. There's definitely a subtext of my friend has a rectile dysfunction and sure, and I when I was a kid, I definitely didn't get that. But it's certainly the spider man. One of of you know the the allegory of webbing around the room. Yeah, exactly. Rami seems to like that as a reference point. There is one dream where in my...

...dream I'm spider man but I'm losing my powers. I'm climbing a wall but I keep falling. Oh so you're spider man. Am I dream? Well, actually, it's not even my dream, it's a friend of mine dream, somebody else's dream. So, Trent, we watch this movie? Or did that not happen? Yeah, no, undeniably at this point, I'd say several times. Okay, okay, I just wanted to make sure. So we had thoughts, right. Yeah, Adam, do you want to do? Want to bring us in? Sure, see, you just want my my general thoughts on on spider man. Tee. This is something of a warm introduction. Later where will try to break down. We're trying to introduce some level of structure to the show of what works and what doesn't work. But if I'm sure you have a rich hit history and you've just want to give us a little little intro. Yeah, I mean I just I think that this is probably my my number one favorite superhero film. I think it is just a beautifully constructed piece of blockbuster filmmaking and I think it is it's fantastic because it doesn't just have it isn't just successfully functional as a piece of blockbuster filmmaking, but it also is so much a Sam Remi Film. You know from every every single moment, you know, and it's just amazing that you get to feel the director in every frame. And you know, I'm not necessarily saying anything new here, but it's just disappointing these days that, you know, when you go and see a franchise, you know, blockbuster film based on a pre existing Ip you you don't get much of a sense of who is making the film and it feels a little bit more like television and this, on the other hand, feels more like a you know, a piece of classic cinema. Almost yeah, that we spoke about that in our spiderman one discussion where we said that lots of times now, where they get like an Indie, successful indie director that did a like five million dollar movie. Yeah, they get to a two hundred million dollar budget, their style is kind of diluted. I mean there's there's reasons for that. It's not always there. For you know, there's there's the machine of it all, there's the I mean marvel specifically, and I'm assuming you know Lucas film will begin to go this way as well. But you know, they pre viz all the action sequences and and they write those things, you know, without the filmmaker involved, before they sign on. So you know, there are reasons for it. But but it's refreshing with a movie like this, where you this is I would say with the spider man movies are even more they push Sam Remi style even further, which, yeah, I always found kind of crazy. Yeah, to infuse every scene with his kind of niche. I don't know if niche is the right word. It's a very specific type of filmmaking. Yeah, I mean if you look at the the sequence where where doc oak wakes up in the in the hospital and you know, murders all the doctors. That feels like something. You know, it feels both like it's, you know, evil, dead, but also feels like it's a universal horror film. You know, it's drawing on all of these these really interesting reference points. In the way that he presents it, it's just like he's off the leash, like no one is is reeling him in and telling him he can't do these things, and it's just a fantastic sequence. I think the thing that elevates this movie compared to the first one, where, and that was a big, a big pedestal to climb pin yeah, but is the visual effects that whatever growth happened in those two years. I think, comparing like the parade scene from Spider Man One with the ridiculous looking balloons. Next they're just like falling or on, falling out of the sky or on the side of a building any given moment, and this movie, where it's just like so grip, Willem dafoe as like a classical actor, really brings the first movie to the next level. And Alfred Molina does the same exact thing, and which is why I mean, along with...

...the too many Villains Syndrome that the third movie suffers. I think, you know, the the dropoff in actor quality definitely plays a part in that. Also, I mean it's hard to live up to to Dalk Oak. You know, he out. Molina plays him with such, you know, humanity and grace and they're are. There are moments of his performance where you almost want to stop yourself and say, like this is a superhero movie like this, I can't believe he's doing this in a superhero film. You know, outside of the original hospital scene, which is just, like, you know, horrific, I think it's like the best encapsulated single scene in the movie. But I think the best thing about doc OK over a green Goblin per se is like the amount of skin he has in the game. Like, you know, his wife died and this is all of his his life's work, compared to doc OK who just like lost his business. And also, I somehow think the ridiculouus premise of, you know, for robotic arms being attached to this man is done in a somewhat realistic way that I'm like on board. Well, they they make a point of showing you the process of all of it. So, even though it's incredibly silly, they make it believable by being like well, look, he is how it attaches to him. It plugs directly into his spinal column. And then they bring up all the stuff about artificial intelligence and they're like, oh, but don't worry, we've created this this very easy to destroy and conspicuously located inhibited chip made of gloss. I guess that just snaps immediately. I mean it's very it is silly, but he plays it so well and he plays it similarly to to toby McGuire and just the general sort of tone of all of these these Rami films is he plays it with earnestness. You know that that's sort of the the key to these films, I think. Yeah, again, this movie is so similar to the first movie in a lot of ways. Yeah, it is what we are. What I like at least, is sort of there's no hint of irony in yeah, in any of what's happening, which I think is something that kind of leagues most blockbusters or films of this scale, is the tendency to go, isn't this stuff crazy? And the characters are the ones doing it. Yeah, it kind of removes a certain amount of Gravatas you can actually have with any of it, and I like one of the things I like about this movie is James Gunn had a quote when he was doing press four guardians to where he said with a sequel you can either go bigger or you can go deeper, and I think this movie does a good job of going really deeper. It kind of takes all of the flaws you can sort of throw at the first movie and then makes them like some of the high points of this movie. As much as I love Green Goblin, his origin stories kind of arbitrary and he doesn't have a motivation really beyond I'm kind of crazy. Well, yeah, they make a point of establishing if he takes this drug he will lose his mind, you know, so he's not operating on the same plane of existence of as the rest of us. But what I like about this movie is that it provides there's like a singular narrative thread that sort of permeates throughout everybody's Arcs in the movie and and I like that. Doc Oc his whole arc functions as a as a mirror to peters and it funk and, yeah, eater's arc functions as a mirror to Harry's and it's a much more streamlined movie. I think, streamline but also elegant, like it's very elegant in the way that it weaves all of these things together and and that extends to the filmmaking itself. When you know, Trent, you brought up the visual effects here and there is something I mean elegant is the what I'm going to use, but there is an elegance to when you see spider man flying through New York and the the way the camera moves to present that it really is is very special. Yeah,...

...and I think bill pope, yes, Bill Posse the man. Much as Don Burgess's work on the first movie was, it was great, but bill pope is just amazing. And I think, yeah, switch to wide screen greatly benefits the movie. It feels a lot more cinematic. Well what you compared to the first movie. It also works so well to highlight Pete's loneliness in those moments. You know, he just feels so alone and so small in at those times, especially then when you compare that to when he's spider man, where he feels so much larger than life. In this you know, huge, massive, larger than life environment. You know, I was gonna speaking on the like that, the villain arcs that was being talked about earlier. I feel like at the end of most of these movies, like we talked about, how spider man is never directly responsible for their death, but usually it's some sort of accidental suicide sort of thing. And I feel like Alfred Molina, more or less realizing that you, you know, not wanting to die, a monster is much more valuable and ending and sacrificing himself rather than, you know, accidentally jabbing yourself with your glider. Yeah, yeah, I mean again, it feels like it feels like we're going back to, you know, gothic horror and like universal monster movies and that sense where the monsters, you know, reflect humanity back at us and we realize that we ourselves are the ones who who are the monsters, and he and, you know, they then they then reclaim some sense of humanity from us, and I feel like that is ox arc in in this is in this whole film, is sort of reclaiming that humanity and and making sure, as I mean I quite literally, making sure he does not die as a monster. And what are you doing? I was watching the the making of with the practical effects and like how they did the DOC ock tentacles, and we learned it was like largely, yeah, it's amazing and kind of and and that, like that looks so good first of all, but then in like the Jurassic Park sort of way where it's like whenever he's walking around, obviously it necessitates CGI, but for the closeups it really makes all the difference that and just like just so the character can like interact with the arms. I just really think it makes it feel that much, you know, more real and like, and that would be a difference that production wise it probably would be all blue screen. Yeah, I would. It will be done in post today. But you, I mean, you're right. It looks incredible and it feels very real, which again, like really helps that performance. I. It helps you believe the the pain he's in and it helps you believe the crazy stuff he ends up doing, because you do sort of to an extent, truly believe that those are, you know, couldn't you know, controlled by him, they are an extension of him. Yeah, and I think that, like the movie came at the exact right time for visual effects, because I think they were at a point where they couldn't do certain things if they were to do it fully, CG. If it wasn't some sort of Yeahs, of practical and visual effects, and I think I mean people kind of rag on the Rami movies now for being cheesy and having like a little sometimes awkward wire work and things like that, but honestly, I like prefer that. Yeah, it's a I've I've been a longtime advocate of...

...making movies look dirtier and yeah, firs a home because it makes it feel, I mean, more like real life. It doesn't have a glossy sheen over it. It feels so much more tactile. Yeah, I mean I do a practical effects, but I think the practical effects are, I think, an extension of the like, the earnest approach to these films, and I think that is something that perhaps audiences are not particularly comfortable with these days. I think just if you, I mean, maybe they are, maybe they yearning for it on some level, but I think if you look at any kind of blockbuster film being made today, there is no you know, there's there's all the Iony, there's all the you get the vibe that everyone kind of thinks like we're making these movies for fucking Dorgs and we're going to make fun of the material within the context of the film, and and that's fine, I mean those can be fun, but it's just such a completely different approach and I think it is reflected in the filmmaking in a lot of ways. I think perhaps the the quintessence of what you're talking about is is the aunt may character, who we're talking about last episode, and I heard you, but I listened to you a math equation. There was very, very scientific approach. Are you telling you about the way I can do this? It's the aunt Ma hotness differential. Yeah, she's, she's she gets hotter and younger each time. But listen to our last episode. But Am am you know, in the in this trilogy is just a really a nice old lady and I think the most emotional scene, and it's like kind of heartbreaking, and you don't see this as a kid, because I mean I wasn't emotionally advanced enough, but when Peter confesses like his Rong, oh my goodness, yeah, bands death, and then she, I don't should just doesn't say anything and you know, doesn't want to touch him and then walks away. I'm like, she's yes, yeah, I mean this one be allowed in, you know, on a current marvel movie. Yeah, I mean it's it's almost pointless to compare these films to those mcu films. It feels like you have to do because they are about the same character, but they it is it's an easy comparison. Yeah, but it is. It really is apples and oranges. And and again it's not. It's not just a symptom of the marvel thing. It's just generally like we just don't make any films like this anymore. You know, it just doesn't really happen. But you're right, that scene in particular really really stands out these days and that moment where the two of them are on like opposite sides of the frame and that ultra right, ultra wide, two five ratio and you know she's going up the stairs, he's sitting at the table. I mean it feels like, I don't know, I mean it almost was like a Bergman film was something like. It's just like heartwrenching and the you know, it's a real moment where you want to just you want you want to hug both of them and you want to pull them back together. You know. Yeah, that's one of my favorite scenes in the movie because it's like a pretty good encapsulation of what the movie kind of is it, which is like a character study of Peter Parker. MMM, and I think the movie doesn't get enough credit for how. You know, the first movie is kind of this really fun, Super High Paced, you know, Kids Action Adventure type story and you know, love the first movie, but this movie makes like a it would have been so easy for it to become a villain of the weak type thing and just make it sort of fun and fluffy. And instead of that, well, you know, they go deeper and they the whole movie is about. Like I like that this sequel is taking the events of the first movie and seeing, well, how does that affect these characters? Where does that take them? Right, right then, we want, you know, doc ock has a bunch of arms, here's a bunch of action sequences. We can do. Let's yeah, I wouldn't say that the first film has a particularly like happily ever after ending, but this is this. But this film is certainly like a what happens after happily ever after? You know,...

...it really is interesting in it doesn't leave those those thematic threads hanging. It explores them, which is another thing that I feel separates this from a lot of, you know, current blockbuster filmmaking is that this is a film that is enriched by thematic ideas and it explores them in every scene to the you know, point of that one star review we were laughing at earlier. The reasons why he loses his power are more thematic than anything else. You know it is. It is an exploration of the the internal struggle of what it is like, what it is, what it is to be a superhero, what it is to be a hero and give up, you know, that humanity within you and and again. You know a thing that I said about Rami on my show and that, I think is again not nothing, nothing new. But the thing he really gets is that a great spider man story also has to be a great piece of Barker Story, and and this one is exceptional in that regard. Yeah, I mean the first half of this movie is like absolutely brutal. I mean, yeah, we spoke about a last time, but like the evil dead movies kind of seem like an outlier. If like they kind of seemed so far away. But if you really look at them, those movies are just beating down on a character. And then that's what this movie essentially is. And like this movie one hundred percent. Has My favorite like depiction of Parker luck, where nothing good can ever happen for him without something bad happening for him. Yeah, and and and I really like how it takes you know, a lot of the comedy comes from that. It's not like dark and Dour, it's not sort of like this is depressing, it's just like, Oh, Oh God, like this just really just sucks from you know, having to confess your admission of guilt in your uncle getting murder, all the way. Yeah, like you get like a drink with no drink in it, you know, like that's like God, yeah, that sequence is brilliant. Yeah, also, as someone that has been has short live events, it's always like that, as in you have the ones cap. Well, no, I would never make that mistake, but you know, you're just like, oh, can I sneak one of the mini you know, queches, and no, no, I can't. So part I watch, I'm more or less by from your influence. I watched this movie through the Lens of Parker luck and I think that functions. I never understood the Ursuladic Kovitch gets Peter a slice of chocolate cake and milk scene until until I looked at it through that and I was like he he needs a break and this is all it takes to get him back in the game. Yes, I'm so glad you didn't, you didn't beat down on the scene, because that's one of my favorite scenes because it's it's throughout this whole movie you're just watching him get battered down and and it's just awful for him and then for and this is like the one time that somebody just does something nice. They don't they don't need something from him, he doesn't need something from them. It's just a nice, you know, scene, and it's the type of thing that would a hundred percent get cut out now because it's not serving a plot purpose, it's not a funny scene, but I'm so grateful that it exists. Yeah, I think the condensed version I noticed this time around. It was after eater save the the little kid from that from the house, and the one fireman's like hey, great job and the other ones like Ah, too bad, someone died on the fore and it's like there was a split second of like no, they said Save the child and that's enough. But that was my best definition of Parker. Look. Yeah, and and I like that, that whole house burning scene and the whole thing with Peter Losing his powers in general. I really like...

...it because I think in the first movie his whole motivation for becoming spider man and doing the things that he's doing is out of guilt for causing his uncle to die, whereas I think this whole movie is sort of him bearing the burden of that guilt. And then, you know, any of us are human, any of us will at some point be like fuck this, this, this is like awful and right. And why I'm why am I choosing to live with this? You know what, like like who decided? I have to. Yeah, what I like about this movie is it shows it's because it's what Peter Wants. Peter wants to be Spiderman. Peter can't stand it if he sees somebody getting beat up in an alley way. Peter can't stand it if there's a house burning and he knows he can save them. That that sort of realizing. It's because he wants to do it. Is Is. I think that's pretty powerful. I agree, and it's, you know, he I think there's also this notion of him having like found his his place in the world. You know that is that's going to be his job, that's going to be who he is and that's how that's what will define him moving forward, which I think is a really interesting way of framing it. Versus, just like just the great power comes great responsibility, and and also the the idea that you know, at that may, gives us, which is that I think there's a hero in all of us, and him realizing that he can help, you know, he could help other people see that within themselves. Adam, going off of something you said, in your eye the duck spider man episode, Yes, there is a dream sequence for just like a flash of the green goblins mass came out and you just thought it was like really silly in your were like I'm I'm so glad that they don't have to like explain like the world of what actually cause this and if it means that there's going to be some thing, you know, further done. The liner fits an in universe thing and I thought the same question was posed like this time with Peter having like the whole flashback or not fly for more of a dream sequence of a new conversation with Uncle Ben and I and I was like, I was, I really enjoyed it. Yeah, but I just thought it would it would post to many questions. Yeah, right, because you can just imagine people being like, Oh, was this a conversation that he had, you know, in that car that we didn't see it? Is this like a weird alternate take that they're using? It's like, no, it's just a dream. Let it be a dream stalking news dead uncle. Don't think too deeply. Yeah, it's a conversation that needs to happen, I think. I mean it's really it's a really bold move, honestly, to be like hey, we're gonna directly address the theme of the First Film. We're going to directly put like these two conflicting ideologies in a car together and have them, have them talk about it. Yeah, and for dead ghosts uncle Ben to be like hey, I don't agree with what you're doing here. Yeah, and then and then for Peter to have to, you know, like to tredge forward. Yeah, it's I mean, could you imagine that? Could you imagine having a conversation with a figure in your life who's passed and who inspired you and you go to them for for advice and they just like no, you think it, you'd be in full control. Yeah, dream you could put, you could play your best case scenario, but to get shot down like that, well, that's the thing. They're right. Dreams are all, you know, subcone chess, and there their explorations of, you know, what's going on underneath everything, and so it's not Peter Talking to Uncle Ben, it's Peter Talking to himself. Yeah, so as hard, as hard as this conversation is to have, I think we've showered this movie with enough compliments. And if if we were again into the what doesn't work part, does anyone have any volunteer? Yeah, I'll say. You know, as much as the visual effects in this film are greatly improved over the first one, which is, you know, incredible that they were able to improve upon it in the first place, because, you know, while not everything in the first film holds up, so much of it works incredibly well, this film takes things to new...

...heights. However, I do think that there are moments where they're using, you know, CG puppets that just do not quite work that, you know, especially when they go full CG puppetree for doc OC, where you know, he's got a long coat on and he's got hair and, you know, a human face, and those are things that are very, very hard to fully render and the tech isn't quite there for it and you know, it just kind of just kind of shows through, which is a bummer. But other than that, I think the whole film holds up. I'm on record as this being my favorite film of all time. That being said, if I had to choose one, it would be that. I think that I don't have a problem with it, but I think that Mary Jane's writing is a little mildly confused, sometimes, HMM, in that it's not a hundred percent clear what her it's not, that her angle isn't a hundred percent clear. And the thing that I think saves that saves the movie from that really detracting from it in any way, is that it's so singularly focused on Peter's journey that her arc kind of helps his arc, if that makes sense. Yeah, he is like an accessory to his which is unfortunate. But that being said, I think, I think that ending thing of her showing up that whole over the wedding march. It's it's beautiful stet cinema. Yeah, morely sequence. I couldn't agree more. Good. Go get them, tiger, like. I know, I know, just reference to the comics, but some hmm, like it's so good. Yeah, okay, I'm tiger. My main point of contention and the last thing. I mean reading negative reviews, there are a lot of people who are just like, well, I'm Je's a bitch, and the last thing I want to do is take a you know, a marriage story or before sunrise and basically be like I don't like it because one party is being unreasonable. But basically, Peter and MJ can't get on the same page Romantically at all during this movie and are four different switches where one party is basically saying I would like to have a romance with you and the other party says that can happen, and they swap who's saying what four times. And I know that that's bad timing and somehow that's how love works, but it in over a twohour period. You're just like, come on, guys, it's a will they, won't they? You know, it's a classic trope of yeah, I think it works perfectly well. Another reason why I love their relationship in this film, even though it is a bit under Rason and, as you say, Trent, you can get the the will they won't they can be tiresome at times, because that's an inherently tiresome trope, even when it's working and it's at its best, is that this film, if you took out the spiderman of it all, it's still kind of works. It's still this this like you know, relationship drama, this friendship drama, this this family drama. You still have so much of Peter Parker and his interiority and the minutia of his life that it could still make for a compelling film. I mean, obviously it wouldn't make a ton of sense if you literally edited those scenes out, but I think the the narrative arcs, they're still function the other thing I'll say is the this that relationship is like exactly the same as the relationship. And you've got mail where there is this degree of like, I know this thing about me that you want to know about me that you can't know, and this is the reason why we can't be together and I just love the aim of that. So, yeah, I totally understand what you're saying, Trent, but it also completely works for me. And I also think spider man, at its core, he's almost better suited to television because it's a soap...

...opera all like the the the best parts of these movies are generally the character interactions and the drama of it all. That that's what's so interesting about so many of these movies, and so I don't mind the will they, won't they stuff, because that's what I signed up for. I want it exactly and as also again, I mean we keep, we keep, we keep mentioning stuff. Now it's a little difficult not to. It's the kind of thing where that type of humanity that I kind of want more of that. You know, it's always pleasing when it's there. HMM. The only other small note I have was that, you know, there's kind of the two kickers, more or less like I mean a lot of movies would end after heat drops off Mary Jane, but then there's the the green Goblin teas and then there's the whole wedding scene, and I was like this green Goblin scene would one hundred percent be a post credit, like like reveal. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, I know, and I totally think it functions well in the movie. I just thought, you know, fifteen years to make a difference about the arrangement of it. Yeah, it's a good point. One of the things I love about the whole Harry thing is that everybody in the movie, Everybody's Arc, if you track them, is about accepting who they are and changing to some degree, and Harry's arc is his lack of one. Harry uses to see reason, he refuses to grow and and, you know, change, and it is that that then leads him towards the dark side, if you if you were to in star wars terms. Yeah, he's a very passive character in that regard. It's just things keep happening around him and he's just drinking about it. Yeah, which I have a nitpick. I have one. I have one nitpick with this movie. It's how it's healthy to nitpick you a favorite film of all time. It keeps a group. Yeah, in the beginning Doc ock tells Peter Intelligence is not a privilege, it's a gift, a gift to be used for the good of mankind. And then at the end of the movie Peter Goes Up to doc cock and he's like, you told me intelligence was a gift and the DOC achoes a privilege. What what happened there? Come on, Alvin. That's a that's interesting. I remember when I was watching it the other day my brain kind of you know, I did like a little double take, but I didn't quite remember that they had flipped that it was a flip of what I've been said at the beginning. But you are you are right, and that is that is not it doesn't make much thematic sense there. Does it seem intentional or do you think it was a misread? I feel like that's a big mistake. It's like both of them have to flop their line. I guess like maybe one reading you could have on it is at the beginning he says that it's a gift and then over the course of the movie he changes and thinks it's a privilege. But that's not really anything in the text or subtext of the movie. So I feel like it's a mistake. But I feel like yeah, fuck, do you make that mistake? That is that is a weird one. I wonder if it is meant to be an inversion of the first film where Pieza refers to being spider man, as says, this is my gift, my curse. Yeah, so I wonder if it's meant to be a somehow a caught a call back to that. Yeah, I don't know. The only other thing I can say while we're here is that I didn't remember that there was an opening, you...

...know, voice over to this movie because, I mean, it was so scandalous the first one. Yeah, they've come back to their old bag of tricks and it was less. It was less every every spider man movie in this trilogy opens with Peter Parker saying some dumb shit. They are you. What do you expect from an opening voice over? If your film is only going to have opening voice over, you expect it to be essentially an announcement of the theme that the film will explore. That's just what like if you're in like a writing class, they, I mean they would firstly they tell you don't use a voice over. The next thing they would tell you is, if you're going to do voice over in the beginning, it can't be like record scratch it. But you're wondering how I got here. It's got to be like an announcement of theme or an announcement of point of view or world. You are one of these things which will then explore for the rest of the film. And in both of these films it is not that. No, it's just like Mary Jane exists, guys, yeah, exists. And this is speaking of sort of like setting the stage like that. We kind of we had something of a field day just talking about how the credits to the first one just like zoom in and out of the spider man logo for five minutes. And and yes, we defended it for, you know, the Ambi ounce of it all. But this movie as setting the stage for what happened in the movie prior. If you hadn't seen it, I think you can be locked and loaded and if you go and see like Jurassic Park two, they ain't telling you what happened to dress her. So I'm saying as a helpful tool, yeah, it's their previously on spider man. Yeah, and with and with with Alex Ross Art, and it all looks be it looks great and a previously like what you've been missing shouldn't were like in a two and a half hour version. But it totally were. Yeah, it also, I mean as you are, because the other thing about it is it's just reminding you how great the first film was. So you see, there's like shit, we're about yeah again. You sit down to watch this one, you hear the theme, you see those images and you're just like, Oh God, yes, here I am, I'm good to go. So I feel like that the ratings of this is going to be pretty underwhelming, but we can I mean underwhelming and that we're all gonna say our praises and then then then go home. But want to do that part? I'm down. Sure, sure, Oh, do you want me go to to go first? Yeah, I mean, we're all going to have similar spills. Yes, this is the best comic book movie ever made. It's the best superhero movie ever made. It is one of the best movies ever made. It is a ten out of ten. It having this movie in existence is not only a privilege, it's a gift. Very good. I'm gonna give this movie a nine out of ten for the sake of diversity, just because it you're saving you attend. Is this wider man? Three, very nice. I try to be conservative with my ten has the most amount of Ursula. I Know You love Ursula Tread. Yeah, we're turn this into an Ursula pod, but if somebody used to be a ten, I have to like pause it in the middle and be like, damn, this is awesome, and I mean in Spider Manto is awesome, but there was it was missing one extra thing. I would say it is a positive thing that you did not feel the need to pause the film, because no film was designed with pauses. No filmmaker is like this is when they will pause the film. So this is true. The pauses are more of just like I need a minute to gather myself because of how awesome it it. I understand. I understand that sequence and you didn't. I mean not to get into the weeds here, I kind of like the aunt may on the side of the building fight more than the train sequence, even though I know the trade wow holl take best action set piece in all time. I mean that train sequences, that train sequence on it own is a ten out of ten. I mean it's it's amazing and also it's it is the there is...

...the moment where he's unmasked and they're all just like we won't say anything, like Ah, it's like the most amazing thing, you know. Yeah, it sure is. One more thing about that scene, though. It has a sort of like in the original spider man, where there is the don't mess spider man. Yeah, exactly, sort of scene. How and this one there's like you gotta go through me, but it like proves fruitless. But I like I like the yeah, it definitely seemed like it. Well, the same energy was was it has to be fruitless because there is nothing that these, you know, regular New Yorkers can actually really do to protect a superhero from a super villain. But I love the these films are so grounded in the New York of it all and spider man is, you know again, he's a character that could literally only work in New York because he requires skyscrapers for for what he does. So I think it's incredibly smart of Rami to em boat into both of these films to have moments where New York has his back. Before we got on, Trent and I were talking the extras are so good. The extras are excellent because, like every time spider man does something you have some lady just out of nowhere. Go, go, spidy go, and it's lover. Hey, if they had a line of dialog, they're a featured player. If they didn't ever line a dialog, there a background artist. You will respect. Sorry, apologies. Yeah, we were. We were thinking about like the the Michael Baynus of it all that after every action shot it hangs on a little bit and then someone with a miniskirt wanders in and you're just like, who's nieces that you know there? There was an awful lot of that in this film. I didn't remember so much of that in the first one, but there was. If Yeah, you know, talking of Nitpicks, that that's probably my nitpick. Is The number of screaming women at the end of action sequences here is a bit gratuitous, or is it not enough? Good question. The only other thing I can say is that you know, since there's a prominent building burning down scene in the first one, that they're being a prominent building burning down stats. One spider man and one he's Peter Parker. But it's definitely like, Oh, we've we've done spider man and burning building before, but the point is the contrast, right. Yea, I agree with you. I agree. I agree. I mean look, much of this film is kind of in the same way that you know evil dead too, is like what if I made evil dead one again, but way better? This is also like what if I made spider man one again but way better, but I don't have to introduce him because you already know him. You know, it is a lot of the same, same kind of thing, and I think like the problem that he would have ended up. I mean we'll end up talking about spider man three. It's only a matter of time. That movie had a lot of studio mandates that made it hard as hell for them to have a movie. But I think one and two, because two is such an almost direct what if we took this scenario but instead of him being spider man, he's Peter Parker, like that happens a lot in this movie. Yeah, so it's kind of a perfect duology. So I think you would have had a problem of changing anything. If you kept at the same it would become repetitious and if you changed it, it's like this isn't this isn't what I like. HMM. Yeah, I say what we just take one second to give it up for the small child who help Peter Look at when he was hanging. Done without it. How heat, how she put her hand on his hand and then moved it up Kinda thank God he's safe. That that child is the real superhero there. Their strength is unbelievable. Everyone, anyone, can wear the mask. Yes, exactly, but my raising is is a ten out of ten as well, and and for all the reasons that have already been said. It's just it is a perfect film for me, beautiful like parts. That will hopefully cover spider man three at some point, but this seems to be the natural conclusion of spider man too.

We, although, I think, should we? Before we log off here, should we briefly talk about the return of Doc ock? What? Oh, Ah Fuck, did you there was this, you know, interview that Alfred Molina did the other day where you just like completely broke all of his NDA's and he's just like yet I'm in the new spider man film, and the way it works is that add you know, they cut directly to the moment in spider man, to right before I kill myself and they zap me into the new film and the daging me and everything. And so does that? Does that mean all the other villains are coming back to so far doesn't. And Jamie Fox has electro from the amazing movies. Right. Those are the only people that have officially like broken their NDA's and said something. But then there's you know, there's been reports of basically anyone involved in any of these spider man films has been reported to be involved in some way. It's just so depressing because unless they take like DOC OC and then they're like, Oh, I'm not going to help you, Peter, because I spent all my my previous hours trying to kill you and now I'm going to try to help this version of you, like, unless they do that, if they just make them of villain again. I expect them. I expect they'll make him a villain again because if they're pulling him out of the timeline at that exact moment, he has not yet been pushed by pizza to rediscover his humanity. Wait, but I wait. What? What? Based on what I'm gathering from the interview, they grabbing him during that final scene, but before he has his heroic turn. Oh, so they're going to do the least interesting thing they could possibly do this concept. Okay, wanted to be clear on that quick, quick ending note. There's definitely a parallel to be seen in the end of jaws too, and and and and doc off getting electrocuted by the wire here, because the shark and jaws too goes down the exact same way. I'm glad we got a jaws to reference in this. Wow, yeah, it's we're directed. It's not often you get a Jewis two reference. Jos Too is directed by Steven Spielberg. I don't think so. It sure is. And those Jurassic Park to try know. Durressic rock too is I don't know that jewels too is the guys. I'm feeling pretty good. I feel like you're wrong. There's this would be an embarrassing moment to be I feel. I feel compelled to look this up. Well, Trent, be prepared to be prepared to be embarrassed, because jaws to is directed by just not Sark. I'm not sure he's French. Yeah, imagine my embarrassment. Seems we workedn't. I'm sorry, Steven Spielberg, if you're listening, you didn't direct rows to. The truth comes out. Well, part you want to tell the people what comes next for the show. So next week, where you have an interview with the production designer of Judas in the Black Messiah Sam Lessenko, who also, did you know, work on Uncut, JEM's good time, Francis Ha some other cool mean wow. He was a nice man. Is a very nice man and it was a very nice conversation. Nice, hefty, our twenty minute long conversation and it you can check it out and on our show next week on Sunday. Adam, you tell people and tell people about you know sis a, say you're good buyas tem where they find your pot? Yeah. Well, if you enjoy hearing me blather on about films, you can listen to my podcast. I have the dunk which you can find on any podcasting platform you can think of. It's on all of them. You can find that show on social media at I have the duck pod and you can find me on social media and Adam Bowl and thank you so much for having me on. This was such a such a good time, so lovely to talk about this film with you. Thank you. Our later. Bye, guys. Goodbye.

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