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Episode 36 · 1 year ago

SPIDER-MAN (2002) Discussion with Alex Lane

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Parth and Trent take another crack at having a movie podcast, as they discuss Sam Raimi's 2002 Film Spider-Man. We get into some MCU discourse, and we do Bonesaw impressions near the end. Also, we use audio clips sometimes now I think? Who knows... 

Edited by Trent Algayer

Go, web, flyway, go, go, go, web go. So part. What have you been eating? Thanks for asking me, Trent. It never gets nice to see you, by the way. Yeah, I problem. I had cinnamon toastcrunch at three in the afternoon. How about you? I just had, I'm currently drinking, a Chi Latte and I had a croissant. We have a guest here today. Am I am I wrong? Who are? It's a film school arrival and Pierre Alex Layne. Welcome to the show. Yeah, I guess that's how I guess that's how we're class flying me. Hello, I am your first appearance. What if you had? Yeah, what have you've been eating? What if I had a chicken dumpling soup out of the CAN, out of it, and then I drank like four bottles of water, but like it was canned, and then I put into will you not believe in reusable water bottles? I what are you trying to do the intro? Let's not turn us into a gotch do it. Welcome back to craft services. What do we talk about, Trent? The movies. This is our show. It's a podcast about the movies. Each week we talked about a film. Hopefully have a crew member of that film to talk with us about their experience working on the picture. Last week we had Steve Arnold. What was he trent? Tell me, this supervising art director and he worked on, you know, Mine Hunter and fear and loathing and forrest gump and you know a bunch of movies that you should care about. Yeah, and he was an interesting, nice young man. What a gentleman he was and you should listen to that episode. He was really great and you should check that out. That's how now on, wherever you listen your podcast, we have a guest, I guess, don't we? It seems that way, I suppose. Okay, chiming in already. All right, Trent. What are we talking about today again? Sam Remis two thousand and two spider man movie. Let me read the Synopsis. When bitten by a genetically modified spider, a nerdy, shy and awkward high school student gained spider like abilities that he eventually must use to fight evil as a superhero after tragedy befalls his family. This movie had a budget of one hundred thirty nine million dollars and a box office of Eight hundred twenty five million dollars. It was also the first movie ever to make a hundred million dollars in a in its opening weekend Trent. Do you mind if I give some production history to this movie, please? In the S Joseph Zo and Tom Cruise had a seven million dollar budget to potentially make a movie about the titular character. That ended up going nowhere. James Cameron became attached to write and direct a movie based on spider man after Stan Lee convinced him to do so. He submitted treatment in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three that had a dark, adult take on the character and he had Leonardo DiCaprio in mind for the role. That ended up going nowhere. After cannon films went bankrupt and then the Sony Studio lined up rolling it. Roland emeric timber and Tony Scott, Chris Columbus Angle, David Fincher, Jon Dubant and m night Chamlan as potential directors. Fun Fact, David Fincher didn't want to do the origin story. He wanted to do a movie about the night gwen stacy died, the...

...storyline in the comics, but the studio didn't want that. So after all of these directors said no or the studio said no to these directors. Sam Rayby became attached to direct in January of to thousand. David Kepp created the first draft of the screenplay and it was rewritten a little bit by Alvin Sargeant, though I think he's uncredited. Some Fun facts about the movie April. In April, about four of the spider man costumes were stolen. Sony put up twenty Fivezero in reward for their return and they were recovered eighteen months later and a former movie studio security guard and his accomplice were arrested. Stage twenty seven was used for the time score sequence in the movie and they built a three story set with a breakaway balcony piece. Shots were complicated because spider man has a red and blue color scheme and green Goblin had a green color scheme, so they had to be shot separately with both with spider man having green screen and Green Goblin having blue screen. And parth Lemia, let me you can rest your voice. Well, I read the final bullet points. So there are a few deleted scenes. The first one was spider man protecting the character of our guests, who I guess is the board member in the wheelchair at, you know, at Oscorp and I'm glad that was cut because, I mean, we have no, you know, emotional attachment to that character. And then the other one was a train scene, which they cut and then clearly use that inspiration in spider man to and then this movie lost best movie at the NICKELODEON's kids choice awards to Austin Powers Gold member, the worst of the awesome powers movies, and it was nominated for two Oscars and didn't for sound and Vfx. Didn't win any of those either. Parts. Should we do once a review? Yes, my is this my favorite? Second Trend. There are four. I hope no one minds. I don't mean to take up too much of your time. The first one is Sam Remy Spider Man. Fantastic. I will recommend some movies which are also fantastic. These are a team pilots of the pirates of the Caribbeans, World Wars, e man in black and many more. So the funny thing about this is it's a onestar review and it's glowing and then he just says it's great in the names a bunch of other movies that are great. So Oliver men are wrote. There was not enough action in this movie. There was too much romance. To me, this is one of those movies that seemed like it was ten hours and forty five minutes and it was just too classic. I just don't see what is so good about this spider man movie. So this next one, I believe his spider man was very good, but he didn't crawl like a spider and he didn't show enough emotion and specific scenes, and I like spider man. Just how web shooting out of your wrist come. Oh, no, they could have done better. Too many villains for spider man three. So they kind of divert into a spider man three review during the spider man one review, which seems kind of beside the point. But Alex, it's your turn now. And oh the reviewers by someone named Alex. yeah, it's fat right. Well, here is a review from a year ago by Alex D. it's a brief one. This show is awesome to spaces and it's so cool. We're just fine. Not another positive review. It's a movie. Yeah, I think. I think they may have thought this was like golf, where it's like Oh, the lower like it's better if you want a lever score. Yeah, I guess. I think that makes a lot of sense. So enough about that. We watched spider man, we did, and I guess it would be time to discuss it.

Wait, but before we get into that, do you guys know of the like the Twin Towers Spider man trailer that was then like to hold? Have you watched it? Because I watched it for the first time today. Scene and it's wild. What happens the spider man? Like, Oh Gee, I sure hope they don't. Well, well, none of it was from the movie itself. It was clearly done as like second unit and like really kind of bad visual effects and just like teas out that a spider man movie was happening. And I it's like open, some sort of opening is like it's like a it's almost like shot, like it's Mike from Michael Bay, and it's like an elaborate like bank highest that kind of has nothing to do with anything. And then you know the criminals try to get away and a helicopter and then you just see the helicopter get like pulled out of the sky and then you see it hung in a web between the Twin Towers and then you see spider man you know, swinging around a little bit, and clearly it was all just like show off the VFX. But it was released like a year before. It was released, clearly before to that, or like pre night or what was it? And it was a made before. No, it was, it was, it was. It was pretty eleven in it was in two thousand and one. It just wasn't. It was pre nine and eleven. Yeah, but well, I'm on like no, it was are it was. It was an eleven or they made it and it was scared. It was aired in two thousand and one, like people saw it in theaters. I read Sam Remy say that the Twin Towers and this, you know, like bank Haist, we're going to somehow be involved in the movie. But the idea was scrapped entirely just because, you know, the he they thought it would be in. There's there's one shot in which you can see the twin towers and it's during it's during the montage where spider man like the montage where spider man's become spider man for the first time. It zooms out from his eye and you can see the reflection of the twin towers. I've read that from the like. The original cut it was digitally scrubbed from the background of every scene, but then on the blue ray it was re inserted back in. Is that true? It's in Sky I don't think it's in the skyline. Again, being honest here, I watched the movie about a month ago and that's what I'm going on. My experience is here. I mean I'd seen it previously, but I watched like the like whatever the newest blue ray at least was, and I do not recall there being a suspicious amount. I don't think what's our true. I think that might have been a plan or something, but I don't think that's true. So enough of that. The the the real movie happened. We were all young, boy, it's I'd say we were the target audience for this movie. Part we recently posted you in your your spider man decre so I would imagine this this hits home. Yeah, so I think this is kind of the template for Superhero origin movie. The only other movie that I think does it as good as this is Batman begins. I Know Trent is not a Batman Begins Fan, but I think that this is really, really good. I think this is kind of it's not perfect, but it it's one of the most stylistic movies of this scale. I think it's kind of crazy that they let sam remi do certain things. I I'm still shocked that this was allowed to happen and I think it's amazing to me how influential this movie still is when you look at the Superhero movies that come out nowadays, because the superhero template didn't really exist until this movie came out. And they were superhero movies that came out before this that were successful, but none of them really, I think, informed the structure of a superhero movie as much as this did, and I love the movie, but yeah, it inadvertently this laid the groundwork for what would become iron man, which would then become, you know, our modern mcu. I mean my earliest memory of this movie is my dad bringing home a cardboard cut out from the movie theater because they were screening, you know, was spider man, and then he asked if...

...he could take it home and then that was it hung over my bed for many years. So it was nice to have a watchful protector. What happened? It's still my closet at home. Nice, cool, but this is one of my most rewatched movies. It's I at any moment this can be on in the background and it's just like the most soothing white noise to me. I'd say I had a pretty loose relationship and understanding as a kid, besides liking the flashing collars and that comes with a spider man movie, but I feel like my adult relationship has blossomed. Yeah, I really, I really like this movie a lot. I hadn't seen it in a long, long time. I have no idea when. The last time I watched it was before, like a month ago. I really really liked it. I thought the I was kind of surprised by like how much of the movie was dedicated to being an origin movie, because I'm kind of used to like the marvel structure of like, Oh, this is the first doctor strange movie, so it has to be his origin, but then we also have to you know, set up all its other stuff or whatever, like worry about other things. I was kind of almost taken it back like Oh, he's just like a dude in this movie for like a long time. It's like it was really pretty much the first half before he's before he's really officially spider man like by by the time you know, Uncle Ben is killed. A Lot, a lot is transpire and I really like one of my favorite aspects of the movie, and part of it is because it's a little reactive because of how many superhero movies we get. But like, the majority of this movie is just a soap opera. It's all setting up characters and intertwining them in soap opera drum dramatic ways. The majority of this movie is like Peter Parker being kind of sad, or Peter Parker trying to confess his love to Mary Jane or like. It's it's not really too much about the mechanics of how do I stop the villain plot, which doesn't really exist for the majority of the movie. A small compliment I thought while watching the movie is, you know, it opens with like everyone on the bus and Peter Chasing the bus and then the bus takes them straight to the museum for like their field trip, which is unrealistic because you know the bus would take you first to school and then a secondary bus would then take you to the field trip. You know, in the next two generations of spider man movie, when establishing the character, there would be fifteen minutes of Peter like eating shit around the high school and everyone calling him names. But I like that this movie. It just jumped straight into it. Then the first ten minutes Peter is like bitten by the radio active spider and then we go from there. But I think the casting of Toby McGuire. I think people like to shit on Toby McGuire, but I hundred percent think he's the best spider minute. So so his his age. I mean I agree that in terms of Nerdiness, that is, you know, the foundation of Peter Parker. And both Andrew Garfield and Tom Holland are way too good looking. And Toby McGuire, besides being twenty seven, I agree, as a perfect fit. Yeah, I mean Andrew or Andrew Golfer with older and how old was femy nine? He's twenty eight or twenty nine. Yeah, and and Tom Bland, night, Toma Holland is the right age. He's just like to charm. I don't even have a problem with that. I mean I don't want to get too much into the spider man discourse of it all. I think people make too big of a deal. I mean like halfway through the movie he graduates High School and is in college. So like I don't. I don't. I feel like the he's too old to be in high school thing is kind of baseless because for two and a half movies he's not in high school. But beyond that, I like that there's a concerted effort to make him like the dopeest looking motherfucker out there, because I think something that other adaptations of spider man and a just superheres in general is I think they're a little too scared to make...

...them not cool. And I know that spider man in the comics maybe isn't as dope and quiet as he is in the Sam Ramy movies, but I think they take that idea and give an adaptation of it, whereas the other the other versions seem more reactive in that. Oh, the SAM rainy ones didn't do that. So now we have to make him a lot more quippy, and I think toby mcguires pretty quippy in the suit. I mean I think he's fun. I agree. Is it? Well, that's like in all DC movies nowadays. All the characters are gods and so like it's impossible for them to be relatable when, like the when the protagonist is Aquaman, and then well, and then then for marvel. It's like they're all to quipy, like they're supposed to be normal people who have superpowers. But still, I like, no, no, none of them are as objectively lame as Peter Park and I like that they make him. He doesn't. He's not like, like really clever or quippy or whatever. He he's from. He's from like a working class neighborhood, like working class family. He's raised by two old people. I mean, this is getting into the weeds a little bit, but I, as a longtime spider man Fan, I thought today, wait, we're spider man's parents at and part do you want to explain to the home of viewer where where they are at? It's never explained in these movies. There's a few explanations in the comics and then the amazing spider man movie. Yeah, I mean I guess the Oh, yeah, I guess the thing that's become most mainstream, and I want to give Alex a chance to speak. What's I'm done about the movie Peter Parker's parents. There's a few different versions. I guess the most prevalent one now is that they were scientists and they worked for Oscorp or some science the type thing and they were like spy agents or something, and so that's why they left Peter and that's I don't again, that's sort of changed more with like the ultimate comics or whatever, but I like that that isn't a factor in these movies because I like that it makes it it's like he's just a guy. His parents aren't anything, he doesn't come from anything. He's smart and he's nice and he wants to do good. He feels it feels too like preordained, like almost like like Oh, your parents were amazing scientist that worked for OSCORP and then we're like assassinated or had to leave or whatever. So that's kind of like it kind of plays into a tripe that I really don't like in a lot of superhero stuff, which is meant for this. Oh, you were always yeah, like you were always meant to be great. You're always meant to be super powerful, which is completely antithetical to what and I also like that. I mean people. I guess we can talk about comic accuracy if we want. Oh, Hood Hare's, come on, man, no, but that's what I was going to bring up is that I think people like to talk about the minutia of comic at comic accuracy, because I remember when the amazing spider man trailer came out and they're like, Oh my God, web shooters, and it's like, hmm, who gives a shit? And and like it. He I think it makes sense that if you get all the powers of a spider, why wouldn't you have like web powers? We've suspended our disbelief that far. Like like, I don't think it's unbelievable and be I think that they there's actually, if you look in certain trailers, they had made web shooters and and shot some footage with webshooters and then digitally removed them because they decided to just do it as organic webbing. But that's the type of thing where it's like we are adapting source material, we are creating our own version of this. And if you look at the Way New York looks and feels and how how the color that like, how colorful it is, and how the characters talk, it feels like the to tone and feeling of those nineteen sixty spiderman comics. It may not literally be what...

...happens in those comics. I mean Gwen Stacy is his original love interest and he doesn't meet Harrier MJ until he's in college. And I mean all these are well, mg meets in high school, but but all these things don't matter. Well, I think it's all because comics are such a malleable medium when it comes to storytelling, like they're they're fifty different spiderman origin stories and fifty different spider man and you know, some of them are from different universes, some of them are from a future, stim them in the past, but there's also like thirty that are all just kind of existing at one time or whatever. So it's like if this was like the adaptation of a book, you know, and may change a lot of these aspects. Like, okay, I could maybe understand being upset about it, but it's just another interpretation of spider man. There's no one spider man that everybody holds up to like this degree of like yes, this is the spider man, of which all other ways there is. There's I'm Sho Spider Man Tomalla. Sorry, okay, yeah, so the opening credits to this movie. I'm not sure when like five minute long CGI credit sequences went extinct but I have to say I'm grateful because I deciburies. Every movie of this nature would do, you know, just like an upbeat song with, you know, some flashy colors and end credits, and I appreciate it because I can walk out of theme. I completely I love the opening credits to this movie. I think they're good. I'm just saying in general, long opening credit sequences have our yes, you know. Well, here's how have lost there. Here's the thing. I agree with you, except for the fact that they've only lost their edge because people don't understand what's good about them, and that's why tell us what's good about well, I think that the A. I know, it's like ambience. Yeah, I it's almost like an overture before like that's actually a good man like. That's how I would sort of see it. And a you need to have good score, and Danny Elfman score is that's my spider man music. I don't I think it's the most well thought out of all of them and I think what sets it apart from the others, and the only one that gets that gets closest for me, is James Horner score for the amazing spider man. What he gets right is that it has to be fun, but it also has to have sadness, because at the heart of it spider man is kind of inherently lonely and he's guilt ridden and he's sad, and that doesn't mean the movies very fun, but you can't forget that and I think this is the only spiderman theme that keeps the sadness along with this sort of triumphant whatever. So, while we're talking about the score, which I agree is excellent, all of the like the the assembled, you know, prerecorded songs are like early thousands, like all rock, and they have not aged for a boy. No, but they're not in the film, which is which is helpful in making the movie more timeless. Think. I think, well, it's the end credit sequence and one after Peter wins the cave's cage match. There does realn't forget macy gray and they'll transmission. But yes, I I'm I'm okay with movies not having rock albums. I just want their movies don't necessity. There's only so many times where I can watch a movie where the first four minutes are a smash mouth song as the cameras moving in and out of like the characters, like symbol or logo or whatever, like I can only take that so many times and I feel like it's not an inherently bad thing, like I'll take it over, like this is apples to orange is here, but like Lawrence of a Rabia starts with like a six minute just song over ture, over black, because it's supposed to be like you know when people are filling into their seats and stuff before the movie starts, so you know what's going to be beginning. So like yes, technically, when you're watching it on a d be in your house, who were flying through the spider man Leger like they're a web shooting...

...every like guess that's more visually engaging, but it's still like I'm still going to want to skip over it, if I'm being honest, and I still think that, like we have to remember that this movie is now almost twenty years old. This like if you look at what the credits I listened, I know Trent you also did, but we I listened to the commentary track and they wanted to do the opening credits for this movie with they wanted to show spider man, but not show spider man because they wanted to keep the suit reveal for later in the movie. And if you have to realize, like if you're in the movie theater and you've never seen a spider man movie and then, which odds are like seven, you know, in two thousand, yeah, it that nothing existed. There wasn't the really the one might show one where he's hitting the wrench on the ground and he has a rope shooting out of his wrists? Wasn't there like like Japanese Spider Yeathers? Just a spider man? Yeah, I think building that anticipation is really nice and I think the first one is maybe my least favorite of the credit sequences, but I think, I mean we'll talk about them later, but the next two movies have great opening credits. I was just going to say this is trivial, but I think the opening credits for the second one is great because it's like the drawings of the stell frames of the first one. And then I think the credits from the third one are kind of lame because it's more or less just like screen grabs. But I know they didn't want to do portraits again. Yeah, I think that like it sets the tone and that it's like it's fun, but it's a little sad, but it's kind of sweet. Part of you're talking about, you know, the the reveal of the spider suit, which can be equated to like how people were literally losing their fucking minds when like to see the Tim Burton Batman trailer in the s. In this universe, Peter, like I understand, he makes the hit the wrestling costume. Sure that seems like something a high school student might be capable of. Well, it's not, of her. And and then then, no, no, I'm saying that is realistic. Okay, and like in the in the new installment, Tony Stark, you know, gifts Peter his costume, which is why it's all Te High Tech. And so basically what I'm saying is, Peter wouldn't, you shouldn't be able to make this costume. I will say to that, who gives a fun? It doesn't matter. Think. I think like so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it like an old suit that was like partially made or something in the amazing spider man movies, like something from it came from his parents, didn't it? In those movies? It's not the first movie, goes sort of into the construction. He kind of looks it up and it's like he sees that you need spandex and he like sows it together and then the second movie just has the suit from the front. This move from like the Rami movies, except with bigger eyes, with no explanation why. I think. I think, like with the Tom Halland ones, it's like I understand and for like the like the cinnamuson's crowd of like, oh, that's a that's a plot contrivance, like that's stupid. He could, he could build it on his own. They're like, okay, I guess we'll make Tony Stark make it for him. But I think that don't like. It doesn't upset me as much that he did that as it does some people, but I think that it does kind of take something away from the character. I think you're kind of making him lose an amount of agency when, like his personality, his being as this character, is sort of taken away since it's made by someone else. And I know that like in civil war he already had a suit that he made himself, but I think immediately replacing with like here's the better Tony Start version you know, here's your irons man suit mark to like. I think that taked away and I think it it also kind of I don't think this was the like reasoning behind the story decision to have iron man give him the suit. And again, this is a spider man one discussion, so I don't want to get too much into homecoming or civil war, whatever the fuck. But I think when you hear discuss like discourse in comic...

...book movies or adaptations or whatever, and I think this goes for a lot of fandom stuff, it's it's a lot of it as like they want to argue over the wikipedia section of it of where did this thing come from? What? How did this happen? What is this? Where does this person come from? Who are Peter Parker's parents, like like that type of thing of things that don't really pertain to the story or the characters are the things that actually make you care about the movie. And I think feeding into that, as later adaptations did, because it really does feel like I think something that this movie does really well is it has so much heart throughout the entire thing it it's like a puppy. I can understand maybe somebody seeing this and being like that's not my spider man. But I can't see somebody seeing this and being like this like upset me. I can range being cynical about this movie, you know, like it's it's like the most on cynical movie. It's it's so earnest, it's earned, hid painfully genuine. actly and and I think are good friends at eye of the duck kind of explained it the same way, speaking to the heart and soul the movie. For the first time, Uncle Ben's involvement really like, I don't know, made me affect like Pete, like Peter, like sassing him in the car, especially now when I know he's gonna die, and I'm like, Damn, like if these were the last words I said to my dad, like I might become a superhero, and then he and then for him to get shot and just like looking to his eyes like Peter. I don't know. I always kind of like made a joke out of it, but now I was like, Damn, this is, you know, a nice origins. That's what I love about the movie is that it's a story. It's not a checklist of demands of we need to hit these story points a so that we can have it, have our movie makes sense and be so we can set up the next yeah, that's the next thing. Before is like it. They actually give the the characters in the world time to like be set up properly beat. Let it be an origin story as opposed to like this is the first spiderman movie we have to make. We have to make four more and then they have to tie into infinity war or whatever later down the line. So let's just get like, let's get the ball rolling. This one is just like, this is its own thing. You know, it's a two it's like two hours, two and a half hours or whatever, and it makes use of that time to just tell like this this very nice, you know whatever, simple story, and I think that it does a really good job because itself contained, I think. I mean I love I love the avengers and whatever too, but there's something to be said about him being the only hero in that world and like he needs to save New York or like. There's something about that and I think people like love to bring up the cheesiness and everything like that, and it's like the movie takes the character seriously. None of the character dramas ever played for laughs. It's it's mainly Peter being a Dork, or New York being kind of Wacky, or or j Jonah Jamison, and that's really it in terms of the jokes. It's the the actual characters are all taken very seriously and there's really good filmmaking in the movie. Like everybody discounts Rami, because in the in the scene after the graduation scene where he goes upstairs and he's crying because he misses his uncle and aunt may talks to him. I didn't notice this for a really long time, but that whole sequence is all in one shot and there's lots of sequences like that where you know can't Ramy's known for his camera work, but he he's doing it for story purposes. He's not. He's not just being flashy. It's it's good filmmaking and that's not, you know, that style and whatever.

It's not something you see so much of nowadays because it feels a lot more corporate. You know, we need this to happen, for this to have this joke come after this sad moments, but the audience isn't left feeling too sad or too long. Yeah, I was just going to say with like this movie is so sentimental and like just the amount of scenes spent where, you know, Peter and aunt may are talking in the rooms about like relatively boring stuff that like would that which would never be seen in a marvel movie today. And I think if you compare this, I mean I know Spiderman homecoming isn't an origin movie, but it kind of functions the same way. It's like your reintroduction to this character and seeing him become the spider man we know and love it. I mean, Spiderman is doing the same trope as Batman, where you told the origin story so many times now that it's kind of culturally understood. So now you can make a joke and it's like overcoming of age after the origin. But I think like there's so much heart and and so much to be explored when it comes to like Uncle Ben's death and like Peter's relationship like with his power and with, you know, with his actions that went to uncle Ben's death and everything that like the most we see about it, and like the new ones is like, oh, his suitcase has uncle Ben's name on it and they mentioned he mentions like Oh, my uncle Ben, like one time, and it's like that is such a like that's like the core of like his entire purpose as a superhero. It feels like it nowadays. And I know people love Holland and I love Holland too in the role. I just don't think they ever give him writing that he deserves. It feels like they're ashamed of spider man, of him being a Dork, of him not having friends, because even in the homecoming movies or the the mcu movies, he's pretty liked by all of his classmates. Like even the flash who is supposed to be a bully. Everybody makes fun of him. Nobody takes him seriously. People like Peter. He's got good hair, he's got you know, like he looks pretty good, he's well groomed. In the Rami movies they're not afraid to say no, he's a loser and that's okay, and like he's everybody thinks that. It's actually an interesting case study because I think I think you probably have about the same ame amount of jokes in the Rami movies and homecoming and it's interesting to see where the emphasis is landed on those jokes, because I think in homecoming you have all of these jokes that are either making fun of what we know spider man to be, or it's spider man is making fun of somebody. You know, it's it's they're very scared of saying no, no, no, spider man is cool, Peter Parker is not like the gentrification more or less absolutely spider I've, I've spider man all right, like can best be visualized through what I like to call the aunt may hotness equation, and it's if you look at the actress who plays aunt may in each installment. You know, in this one she's like it's really eighty. Yeah, then in the next one she's like sixty, and you know she's still like an aunt. and Nowadays Merca Toma is aunt May, and it's like a punch line about how young and make a lot of jokes and I young, attractive. She's like to the point of it's like one of those things where you're it's like a Dan Schneider situation where like there's like ulterior motives behind this, like somebody, somebody in the studios thinking too much about this. Okay, it's the same thing of we're embarrassed to have spider man have an old aunt. Yeah, so she's got to be hot and we got to mention it. It's got to be maricy, don't I feel like that was maybe something that they just kind of wanted to have, like, oh, like a little bit of a subversion of the character, like he's this is a spider man who can...

...find yeah, like where you feel you feel the fact, like, especially in civil war, like he is, however old he is, it like six or seventeen in that movie, like you feel that you you, they really sell you on it. So I think they originally they kind of with without May. I think it was meant to be a oneoff joke. Yeah, they made that her only character. Yeah, and it's like you look at aunt May in the in this movie and she's an actual character, like she had a husband and she's trying to raise Peter. And I mean I think they give her a little bit more in the second movie to do and see. ME, getting to see her like grieve is so good in this movie, like it's because it's an you really realize, like it's not just peter that's going through this. Like you, you build this further connection with aunt may just because, like you also see like just this sad old woman just grieving over the loss of like her life partner. So, like, I think that this movie it shows that, like, I mean, these movies are for kids and I think my view of blockbusters and large scale entertainment of this kind, you know, Mad Max Fury Road, is not for kids, but of this kind, I think it's helpful for it to be beneficial in some way and I think it's a little disingenuous to say to never really put the sadness of, you know, real life in there. And it's very different if it's Peter Parker in this movie versus say, iron man in iron man three, and I think having a scene where Peter Parker expresses guilt and sadness over his uncle's death, who he caused. It's powerful and that can be powerful for a kid. Peter cries like two or three times in this movie, and I just think that, I mean, I I would rather have, you know, men expressed as people who are able to cry then just like you know, Gods and Aquaman. I think it's also not a matter of, like, I'm not inherently against like superheroes being a monolith. If, okay, if I'm being honest, not really much of a superhero guy to begin with. But you know, I don't have like an inherent issue with like the DC Monolithic God superheroes. But I think there's a very big difference, like emotional connection wise, between Peter Parker in the same or amy movies and Peter Parker in like, you know, the Tom Holland mcu movies, because I just think like as much as Peter and Spider man in the Tomhall movies is very charming. He is a fun character. He's a funny character, like I just think he's he's I think like like Peter Being a bit of a cry baby in the same ur Ami Movies is is something that is endearing it and it connects the Carret, you know, the audience to the characters more, whereas, like in the mcu ones, he's just kind of like this quit filled machine that's like okay, I need to it makes a more generic I think. I think one of the things I like about Peter Parker's that he's different from every been else. He's sixteen, you know, or like a high school or like an early college kid. I guess in this movie he's at yeah, but like generally you know at which kind of informs the character as a whole is like he's literally like his whole point is that he's like I'm on my way to go get my aunt bagels from the store and then I see a criminal doing something and I have to stop them and I have to run into an alley, turning to spider man, take care of them, get out of the outfit and then go buy my bagels like that spider man. Yeah, he he's the working class hero. So part and I were talking yesterday about, you know, Superhero Franchises and I was thinking about what makes we were talking about how there's a Batman movie for every mood and that you know you got you there's Tim Burton, there's there's the Joel Schumacher, there's the Chris Nolan, and they're all of a very different essence. And the the commonality between all those things is that it's one director who is assigned responsibility to do like several movies in a row, either a trilogy or two movies, and it's the same case for Sam Remi, and I think I mean not to give too much credit to like our tour theory. I mean I know more or less that's what...

...they tried to do with Schneider and by giving him all like the DC helm. But in terms of marvel movies, like I mean I worked out well with giving techwa td, you know, Thor Ragnarok, but just to give like an artsy director like a lot of money to do this, it seems impossible. I think. I mean callings Sam Raymi Arts he is is even pushing it, because it's kind of a strange choice. And believe me, I have all the love in the world for Sam Reemy, but like I think, I think that giving a guy that did the evil dead movies the helm to spider man, you know, like that's crazy and I don't think there's there's a series of movies other than maybe timber at that came after this, other than the Snyder movies and no one's Batman movies, that have as much of a directorial stamp on them. I the completely agree and I think early on you said like Oh, this movie and like the Ramy Movies as a whole, feel so unique, even just like visually, compared to like the morrow movies. And I was thinking about that because it's like the marvel movies kind of like post avengers, postage of Vultron maybe have been pushing very hard, like Oh, guardians of the galaxier Thor Ragnarok or or doctor strange, like they're like color very weedonesque humor. Yeah, but even even just like visually, like Oh, they're colorful movies, like their sense bace or whatever, like all this like grant CGI. But when I was thinking about like what you were saying, where this spider man movie feel so visually distinct, it's not visually distinct in like Tycho with Ted's Thor Ragnrock, and I endore taiga with td, but like Thor Ragnarok is in a movie that I watched and I go like, Oh, yeah, of course it's a Tiga with td movie. Like if I watch that movie, I would have never guessed that it was him directing it. But if you show me Sam Rere me spider man, I'm like my mind is going to go, oh, the dude who did evil dead did this. It's crazy because if you look at movies, because now the thing for blockbusters is to get a guy that did a ten million dollar movie. Well, yeah, the the the Ryan Kugler get know, the the father four fell station to the black very least Ryan Kugler did a small movie and then did creed, which is a big movie, but not as big as Black Panther. So at the very least there's that. It's generally now they do you made a ten million dollar movie, here's The keys to like star wars or something like. It's that type of deal. And usually what happens is when you get a guy like that is their style is significantly dampened. And I think by getting somebody like Raymi, who a has a very distinct style anyways, and I think had he not directed a lot of movies in between, it still would have shown through. But getting a person that sort of went through the stages, did his small weird horror movies, did a few, did a did a slightly bigger western and he did well. He did dark, I know, but like as like he did like mid budget movies. If you look at these movies, the the style is not in any way dampen and if any, if anything, it's increased. You can find the budget make a direct line between evil dead one and spider man like. There is, I think you know, you have Sammami with evilded one at his pure like. This is you know, we're filming this on money that we gain from like our family and and, you know, investors. We have whatever to do with this. And then spider man, like I think it's one of those things where it's not like, Oh, I can tell that Spider Man One is a Samurai movie because it has, you know, tilted camera angles and Zoomin's and stuff like that, but it's just there. He just has even besides those like obvious calling cards, like he has all of these elements that he he really likes putting into his homes, like these these character moments, these character themes and ideas, and I think all of that is present in evil dead one. And I think if if you look at the evil dead movies, it's actually interesting how good of a choice Samuraimi is, because I think the thing that spider man is is Parker. Look of nothing good can happen to Peter...

Without something bad happening to Peter, and it's essentially beating up a character, and that's kind of what his movies are if you look, like if you look at the evil dead trilogy, he's just putting Bruce Campbell through the ringer and it's the same thing, except it's in some ways a less physical ringer. It's more of an emotional ringer. But but it's the same thing, and I keep saying this, but it feels like they were making a movie. It doesn't feel like they were making TV, which is what a lot of superhero movies feel like nowadays. If you listen to the commentary, you can hear him and toby talk about yeah, you know, we were thinking about what peters how should look like and we had these ideas and we had we were thinking about the direction of the story, and you feel like it's there's authorship over the movie and it wasn't Sony saying we need this. I think it's a matter of like like one division has like just recently came out and so many people were talking about on twitter or whatever, and I heard so many people saying like Oh, man, like the things that want a vision is setting up now are going to be so exciting, you know, in the future whatever. And there's I think there's such an IMMEDIAC seat to Samurami spider man movies where it doesn't feel like it's like, well, citing things are happening now. Yeah, like we we don't have a contract for three movies we know. We don't know if we're going to have spider man to pear ten movies down from now. Let's just have fun with this, let's make this a movie movie and and do spider man here and now. I guess that is kind of the question is. Was Spider man one made in a bottle, because I feel like a lot of the plot lines, you know, are kind of meant to operate over an honest and no, I think it was. It was planned to do sequels. I don't think you make a movie like Spider Man Without thinking of sequels. But I don't think if you look at this movie and you get the amazing spider man, it's very clear which one was designed to set up more sequels. This at the it's story is one contains story, it's not. You know, we have to have this element because we want to set up and may being a superspy or, you know, something which is something that was actually happening in amazing spider man too. What do you think is the strongest or like most free watchable scene, and is there anything that you would like consider like cutting from this movie? I think the strongest scene. Can I give a sequence? Yeah, part you know as fuck you. This is my podcast. Are Are Our podcast? Sorry, HMM. anyways, no, I think the ending sequence of the funeral is the strongest scene in the movie. I think it gets everything right. I think it's soap operay and it shows Peter Choosing to be, you know, to give up the thing he wants the most. And I and then the the the climax of it all with the spider man swing is great. I mean I agree with you that for the movie to operate like he has to give up Mary Jane. It would just be too many good things in a row. It would be too much riding off into the sun setting her car luck. But my my, my problem with it is this, and it totally makes it more rewarding at the end of spider man too, and I finally does happen. But in the first spider man, when Peter and Mary Jane are just friends, Mary Jane is nearly killed three times. So my question is, if they start dating, how much worse can it get? And I wanted to prepare for the rebuttal. So I thought, how many times in spider man two and three is Mary Jane captured and in the next two movies she's only captured once and in spider man three they're together, so her numbers are better when they're dating than when they're a dating closer to the chest. Yeah, I have one more thing. So you know how they have the famous upside down kiss in this and then they kiss at the end and then Mary Jane like touches her lips...

...and it's very much like, oh, did she realize that WHO Spider Man is? And then the whole next movie it goes back to her not knowing who he is. Think we can discuss that next time with spider man too. But I will say this. I don't think it's I think it's meant to be the even saying in the commentary. It's meant to be ambiguous and I also think it's supposed to be ambiguous in the second movie up until the point in which it happens. I think it's meant to be ish. Is She? Does she know and is she playing coy? So I think my problem is that in in the second movie so much time like a subplot is Mary Jane being like I have to kiss all the men in my life to find out which one is spider man, and that's already is basically already kissed Peter and then she's like, Oh, if we only kissed, I would know you already kissed guys. I think part of its probably the resident expert on spider man to here. I'm sorry to say, Trent, I haven't seen it in a long time. I know that that I'm out ranked. I love any scene and I'm frankly shocked that we haven't mentioned him yet. With Willem Dafoe, I love Willem dafoe in general. Give one. I I know, it's hard, isn't it? It's a tough one. Like I think I gave the one scene in the movie that definitively has no William dafoe. Didn't I? He's fucking day. Oh yeah, it's his funeral. He's under is an around, I mean, I think sleepy. My immediate reaction is like, oh, him talking in the mirror, like I think that's such a great scene. I love that scene, but I really, really like like the this seem leading up to like him going into the chamber and like using the gas or whatever it was that like made him cool back to kill. I think. I think William Dafoe is like he's just having so much fun in that movie and I think you can really feel it from him and I think he's just giving it as a all and it's not. It's not like the kind of fun where he's almost like dismissable an he's like, I'm just going to have fun with this, like he's having fun with it and he's he's doing his best, like he is a Shakespearean actor doing it, and I love it. He knows, he knows that he's supposed to be a cartoon character. And and even behind the mask and like Willem Dafoe, like is able to like articulate, there was like his body language, like he I don't know, he's so active, even though you can't see him for most of the time, and like you know that that it's him behind the suit. They say that in the commentary that like he wanted to the suit. Hell, that's why they open up the eye, the eye slits well, but even beyond that, he he had to they had to change the costume because he wanted to be in the costume for like the majority of the stunt work because he wanted to physically do it. And I think Sam Rami or toby said that like that's like a difference between people that go straight into movies and people that to theater, because theater you have to work with your body and you can see how much of a difference it makes, because it's like the way he moves when he's Norman and the way he moves when he's the Green Goblin completely different. The way he moves, his face is cletely different. I read that he did ninety percent of his own stunt work and if you guys scroll to the bottom of the document, you can see the original Green Goblin mask, which was like animatronic based. I know, I think it's really cool too, and it's like exactly from the comic book. But I like this sort of like sleek, athletic like gear they went it seemed like more military realistic, since I was like supposed to be, I think word. I think from what you're from, like the designer in me, I just really love the look of like the animatronic mass they originally had, but I think as as like a story or as like in actually in the actual film itself, it would have been weird for I don't know if like within the context of the film, this would have been like a mask or like his face would have changed, but either way I don't think it would have worked as well. I think it would have been a mask. Okay, so I'd say my favorite superhero movies are spider man and Batman, partly because of how like tactile like, even though these...

...people, or just Batman Movies in general, because you know it, it's more or less it's the most believable, like no one is like from another planet, and you know, all of the origin stories are somehow like sciency, with which I'm more a tune too, than like magic, and I think that, like decisions to make, it just feels like the most realistic, even though it's like also like the most over the top. I don't know, it's hard to I also think it's good because it if it was, if it was an animatronic face, that would have disconnected you from will and Dafoe's performance. It would, it would have put a layer on top of that. I mean credit to toby McGuire, because I feel like the same compliment can be let lent to him that he has a very specific like body movement, stiff body, but body movement, and you can tell that it isn't like I didn't even need. And do you have a favorite tig eyes? For the sake of diversity, I'd say like the bridge scene into the I'd say if I'm flipping through the channels, what I'm most likely to stop and sit down is the bridge scene into like the final showdown where, you know, the the Goblin like kills himself with his with his glider. And I was listening to some commentary and it was Sam Marey me talking about how this is like a kids movie and how every time the villain's death has to be self inflicted, and I thought, wow, that really is the case to every spider man, yeah, villain that in some securitist way they find a way to commit suicide or have accidental death. Or I mean doc ox case it's you know, it's kind of for for good. But I guess spider man has a has a no killing rule like that. I think because it's rated PG. I think the Green Gobble, I think. I'm pretty sure that the first fight of my movie was like the first time I ever saw like a death taken seriously on film. Like, for some reason I was a kid. I didn't really remember Uncle Ben's death that much, but like I remember like I was practically scarred by the green era, by Green Gobble, and died like it was just it was like there's blood, you know. He gets impaled in all this, and obviously I saw the movie when I was really young, but I just remember being like so kind of gob smacked, like Oh my God, like they can do that. It Miss. I think. Don't tell Harry. It's such like an iconic last line and just when he sees that he's done, he just goes, Oh, oh, I don't think. Oh how he don't tell Harry. You know, it was a scene that I was actually impressed with on rewatching. It was a I really like the the Thanksgiving scene. I didn't remember that from when I said that's a scene that would get cut. Yeah, but that's right, rate seene. Yeah, wait, so so would you like about it, just like Norman, like I just like the figure out who's spider. One thing I just I really like whenever movies are able to kind of pair up character stock don't expect. Well, yeah, that, but also pair of characters they don't really expect to interact in the movie, like at May and Norman and stuff like that. I think it's just I think it's a really interesting and it's one of those scenes where I feel like a the like characters secretly know about each other's thing. They did like kind of tension scenes are very overdone, but it's so well executed in this and I think the the tension is really, really good and it's also just it's...

...a managed to be like tense and just fun to watch at the same time. So is it time? As said, wait, let me check my watch. What time are you insinuating it is? Is it? Is it rating? Oh clock, is it? I'm going to stop you right there. It is writing so close. The only additional thing one to say was that the the bridge scene is a lot like the you know, the finale if Batman forever. And then that got me thinking about how you about your childhood crush on Nicole, Kidman and Batman forever. I don't think that's an YEP, no, I mean, I was told not to nip pick, so I thought I thought I might as well just, you know, exposed part just a bit. All Right, I'm done. To rate it. All Right, Alex, our guest, you go, Oh God, out of ten. I there's a reason I have an updated my letter box and like a year. I'm so bad at rating movies. Now I feel like emotionally like as a movie that I've had for so long in my life, I want to get it like like an eight or nine. Probably like a nine, but I feel like, upon rewatching it as much as I did enjoy it, I think it's me like a very comfortable set. Yeah, so an A. No, like a comfortable seven, like that's not a n no, no, no, no, like it's a seven, but you said that like from an enjoy gave it to nine as well. So I average that would be eight. I don't know, I'm I'm kind of against rating movies like too, too high, like to brazenly know it's stupid. It's all arbitrary. WHO cares the random numbers? But I'm really just stupid an arbitrary. I think I'm gonna go with an eight, just because I was watching spider man two the other day and I was like, all right, this is considered the best one. So if this is the high water mark, and I still think spider man two has some flaws, so I'm considering that nine and I think that you can't give away your rating for Spider Man Too oh no, what will the vine think? This is an eight in comparison, having this spoiled for them. I know our refutation is soiled. Yeah, I'm I'd give this an eight as well. I might can an eight point five, but I'm going to give it an eight for now because there's still some I think it moves a little too fast and I think there's some wonky effects, which I don't generally care about her anything, but it's just something, something to think about. The mannikum, especially seen, is very I don't care about that. I don't care about that. That part's great. What when when she's holding on to him, like as they're swinging after the like the parade stuff? If you look it's pretty clearly a mannequin that she's very into. But yeah, I'm going to give it a night. I have I have one a fun fact before we get place. So I was watching spider man with my sister the other day and one for a friend, and it was, you know, the the cafeteria scene where Peter, with his newfound spider sinse like catches all the stuff in the lunch tray and someone there said, you know that that's a practical effect and I said that's impossible and then I looked it up and apparently it took one hundred and fifty six takes and they had to put a sticky substance on the on the tray, but it but it was real. All right, that's through work right there. Yeah, yeah, all right, I have a few more while we're here. The Spider Man Font is the same font used for the psthree originally, and then they change the psfree logo because it was the spider man font so apparent. This shocked me. They used a real spider and they and as the Anath, Fuck Shit, they anaesized it and they painted it red and blue and that. Yeah, I didn't know that.

And then so James Franco and Tomyguire have like a famous rivalry after the spider man trilogy, and apparently it's because James Franco described told me wire's features this quote frog like and I thought it was funny because they're so chummy on the spider man three, like a cast commentary. But I'm sure it went down over over. I mean the first movie came out like five years before Spiderman three, so I'm shy. Sure they mended pads or whatever I think. Yeah, I guess we should, Trent, you mind, we should talk about what what comes next. Yeah, so next week we've been keeping this a secret, but next week we're going to be talking with Dave Cyrus. He was cowriter of the King of Staten Island and he's Pete Davidson's writing partner. So check that out. Yeah, and he wrote, he wrote on US and Allen stuff and we ask so much of questions and he answered. Trent, do you mind if I do? You mind if I give us an outro please? I just want to thank our guests for this week. I'll explained for coming by. Thank you. Well, I just I just want to thank you for giving me the the honored opportunity to speak with all of you today about Spider Man Two thousand two and what I I think I'll leave you guys with. Also, follow us on all social media please. It'd be really healthy. Yeah, and I guess I guess you can like and rate, subscribe, of all things that would that would just helps us recommend. Appreciate it if you did. If you did those its. Oh thanks. Thank I think a great thought to leave you all with is bones saw. He's ready. I've got you for three minutes. Three minutes of paid time. I didn't set it for a cage match out. I was going to say it would be an absolute sin if no one did a bone saw impression by the end of this episode. What's your name, kid? The Human Spider? Human Spider. That's it. That's the best you got. Yeah, well, that sucks. Some of three thousand dollars will be paid to the terrified the spider. My Name's the human spider. I don't care. Get Out. No, we got my name wrong. Yeah, tell you more.

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